The Puget Sound [Quenched]

by **edbeard** on Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:43 pm

I don't think it matters where the map is. It's come pretty far and is close to being done. Close is a relative term though.

Things that need to be done
1. army circles centering. we haven't seen one with everything properly centered. there's no argument on this one. this is a requirement for the map.

Things that probably should be done
1. Even Andy agrees that borders are not uniform throughout. It's not a gameplay issue, but the foundry produces maps that have solid gameplay and look good. Not just one or the other.

I hate doing it. I think most people do. I'm not saying "I did it so you have to too." It's just to get the map looking its best. Redo those borders!

Things that are probably just matters of opinion
1. Legend
2. Land Texture

Not every map has to be a masterpiece. The issues people brought up are details that may or may not be done, depending on the mapmaker (in my opinion anyway (well the whole post is my opinion)).

Maps have to look good and this means balanced colours, good borders, etc...They don't have to be outstanding. I think we should strive to have every map possible be outstanding. But, having a few here and there be relatively average is fine. (I'm not trying to knock your map Tisha, but compare it to many of the maps coming out and it is average (so are mine btw!)).

by **pepperonibread** on Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:58 pm

edbeard wrote:1. army circles centering. we haven't seen one with everything properly centered. there's no argument on this one. this is a requirement for the map.

I never noticed this. It was a little farther back, pg. 14 I think.
Ed's right. This needs to be done, if nothing else.

by **gimil** on Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:58 pm

wicked wrote:Gimil, if you had been following the map, you would've known the conversationg HAD died down and all the mentioned problems addressed.

Wicked i completly agree. But like i said i have been unactive for a while and already mentioned that this is the foundry in generals fault not tishas. But even andy would comment on somethnig he was unhappy with before considering FF.

by **mibi** on Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:58 pm

Let me try a maneuver from Wicked's play book.

First, make your statements:

1.Doodle Earth discussion was 67 pages, it make look simplistic but it was constantly refined countless times. Let's not get hasty with this one.

2. Wicked, you speak of the foundry like you actually know what goes on here, I actually question your sudden presence here.

3. Discussion of the foundry process always starts in the threads where the process isn't working. Get used to it.

4. I wouldn't advise budding cartographers to 'not listen' to other more experienced members, this process does not work in a vacuum.

5. I think discussions died down on this map because people simply were not interested. I mean, its not the most interesting map out there. If the comments are few and far between, it's up to the cartographer to go out there and elicit responses (thats what sigs are for, most cartographers use them). I never see Tisha commenting on other peoples maps so I am not surprise people haven't return the favor. Also, who ever moved this to the forge should have recognized this, and its lack of appeal... i mean discussion.

Second, it an attempt to moderate, make an appeal to stay on topic:

But c'mon people, lets stay on topic here. Let Tisha make changes.

by **bedub1** on Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:03 pm

I've read from Page 15. Here is my opinion.

Things I like
*I think the Whales are great.
*I think the Colors are great.
*I think the water is great, I like the way it gets lighter in some areas...I bet it's shallower there.
*I love the text, as it's easy to read.
*I love the borders, as they are easy to see.
*I love the texture of the surface of the territories, it's not as boring as a plain color, but not so obnoxious I can't read anything.
*I am fine with the ferry route that goes down instead of up, ferries don't all fly like airplanes....there is an island in the way.

Things I think should change
*I think King Co. in the Legend does appear like it is floating, along with Kitsap Co., and all the others are flat.
*I think the "Bremerton" label should be moved to the right, especially on the small map.
*I think the Sunny Slop text should move down, along with it's circle, to get the circle inside the territories borders.

Things I think are pointless
*I think the borders being jagged isn't bad, or good. I attribute it to the Artistic Expression. All artists do things differently, as this is CLEARLY an artists creation.
*I think the army circles are fine where they are, some are above, some are below, some are where they fit.

Things that piss me off
Way too much whining and bitching and biting back and forth and not enough CONSTRUCTIVE INFO.

Thats all I have to say.
Thanks!
Bedub1

by **gimil** on Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:07 pm

bedub1 wrote:Things that piss me off
Way too much whining and bitching and biting back and forth and not enough CONSTRUCTIVE INFO.

Thats all I have to say.
Thanks!
Bedub1

there has been plenty of constutive critisim, yes there is alot of back and forth crap and arguments going on, thats what the foundry does when making maps. but all the critisims ive seem have been well structured as to why they think that way.

by **bedub1** on Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:15 pm

Deleted by Bedub1

by **gimil** on Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:23 pm

bedub1 wrote:
gimil wrote:
bedub1 wrote:Things that piss me off
Way too much whining and bitching and biting back and forth and not enough CONSTRUCTIVE INFO.

Thats all I have to say.
Thanks!
Bedub1

there has been plenty of constutive critisim, yes there is alot of back and forth crap and arguments going on, thats what the foundry does when making maps. but all the critisims ive seem have been well structured as to why they think that way.

My reply should be deleted, as it has nothing to do with the map....as does your reply.

As with hte thousands of posts that go slightly of topic every single day?

by **reverend_kyle** on Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:28 am

oaktown wrote:
reverend_kyle wrote:The army shadows seem really inconsistant.

Right, check the shadow you have in King Co - its not the same as the others.

right tisha I misspoke, but oaktown understood and translated the next post. The inconsistancy still hasn't been fixed.

that was page 8. It's not like I posted it yesterday :roll:

by **rebelman** on Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:53 am

I really like this map but I would like to make one small suggestion having just looked at the map again - could the bridges in Pierce co and heading out to camano island be adjusted so there is a clearer distinction as to where one territory stops and the next one starts - as of now it looks like they roll into each other with no obvious start/stop although im guessing they do not cross the water although this is unclear in the map.

by **mibi** on Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:43 am

My main problem with this map is thats its too boring and plain. Where is the appeal?

Seriously, where is the people? Can the people who really like this map tell me why they like it.

First of all, the subject, Puget Sound, is a bit esoteric. But this doesn't have to be a detriment to it's likability since a cartographer can draw in a person with a maps charm and flavor. Indochina is a good example. Indochina? Whats that? I dunno, but this map looks like it wants to be played. Italy is another one. Im not Italian, I could give two shits about Italy, but the Italy maps exudes Italian flavor like no other. It makes me feel Italian just playing it. Also take South America, a standard geography map, but the colors really pull this map together to make it breathe South America. Even older maps like Tameriel and Ireland embody what there are about.

Now back to the Puget Sound. I could care less about this small geographic location, as I am sure many other users could. But that doesn't me you can win me over with flavor and style. But this map has none. What I see is this; a standard geography map, with standard colors, in a standard font, with standard textures, and standard layer effects. All of this adds up to something that is quite substandard by todays foundry standards.

What I suggest is that your breath some life into this map and it make exude Pugent Sound. What IS the Pugent Sound, why do you like it enough to make a map of it. You have added two wales. Great, but it looks more like some sloppy afterthought rather any real character.

Bottomline, this map has no passion in it. It feels like the cartographer is just going through the motions, and the mods were just going through the motions in final forging it. Tisha, you obviously have enough passion to defend your map from its critiques, you should direct that inwards, on to the map itself.

by **wicked** on Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:54 am

The colors of the map represent a totem pole, representing the Indian culture here. I don't know where to add a totem pole to signify that though??? Mt Rainier was an actual picture of a mountain at first, but it never looked quite right, so was dropped. If we could somehow convey those two things, it would help identify the region better, but how to do that?

by **yeti_c** on Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:58 am

mibi wrote:Indochina is a good example. Indochina? Whats that?

Indonesian China...

I.e. Parts of Indonesia that the Chinese conquered...

Also known as FRENCH INDO-CHINA...

I.e. Parts of Indonesia that the french conquered after the Chinese conquered...

This area has been one massive warzone for a hell of a long time...

C.

by **mibi** on Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:02 am

wicked wrote:The colors of the map represent a totem pole, representing the Indian culture here. I don't know where to add a totem pole to signify that though??? Mt Rainier was an actual picture of a mountain at first, but it never looked quite right, so was dropped. If we could somehow convey those two things, it would help identify the region better, but how to do that?

I dunno, but your headed down the right road. There must be several ways to represent the indian culture there. That would add some of the character this map needs.

by **WidowMakers** on Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:41 am

Sorry but I don't know if the border issue has been resolved. I did not have time to read the entire thread from page 15.

Here are some examples of border issues from qwerts Iwo Jima Thread. Hope they help. They show how to achieve smoother lines with different setting in photoshop.

First, this is your original image.

We believe you used a pencil effect to do this, possibly with vectors, like one of the three I'm going to show you here.

We all have agreed we would prefer it if you did one of the following and applied the effect to all the borders in the map.

by **James Vazquez** on Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:59 am

thank you widomaker for you advice and expertise.

As far as mibi goes noone cares if you like the content or not that is none of your business. You dont like the map dont play it. focus your commenst on the map itself. plenty of people wanna play the map. Why, for countless reasons. You dont understand, well who cares. Make your maps as you see fit and leave what is obviously a popular map alone.

I'm sure if i choose i could flood this thread with people who want to play this map but that would be a waist of time and effort. So lets just focus on getting this up to snuff and get playing on this map.

Noone wants a pissing contest!

by **wicked** on Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:01 pm

James Vazquez wrote:Noone wants a pissing contest!

Exactly James, which is why we've already moved on from that. Thanks. :wink:

by **Tisha** on Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:35 pm

reverend_kyle wrote:
oaktown wrote:
reverend_kyle wrote:The army shadows seem really inconsistant.

Right, check the shadow you have in King Co - its not the same as the others.

right tisha I misspoke, but oaktown understood and translated the next post. The inconsistancy still hasn't been fixed.

that was page 8. It's not like I posted it yesterday

yes..that has been changed.. probably page 8 or nine..i have done alot of updates

by **Tisha** on Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:38 pm

mibi wrote:
wicked wrote:The colors of the map represent a totem pole, representing the Indian culture here. I don't know where to add a totem pole to signify that though??? Mt Rainier was an actual picture of a mountain at first, but it never looked quite right, so was dropped. If we could somehow convey those two things, it would help identify the region better, but how to do that?

I dunno, but your headed down the right road. There must be several ways to represent the indian culture there. That would add some of the character this map needs.

i had a totem pole, mt. rainier..i had the whales...which were NOT an afterthought.. and was told over and over that they distracted from the map

by **Tisha** on Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:43 pm

WidowMakers wrote:Sorry but I don't know if the border issue has been resolved. I did not have time to read the entire thread from page 15.

Here are some examples of border issues from qwerts Iwo Jima Thread. Hope they help. They show how to achieve smoother lines with different setting in photoshop.

First, this is your original image.

We believe you used a pencil effect to do this, possibly with vectors, like one of the three I'm going to show you here.

We all have agreed we would prefer it if you did one of the following and applied the effect to all the borders in the map.

i have redrawn the line for the small map... because someone didn't like the jagged lines.. :roll:

. and the lines around the islands Whidbey and Camano still look thicker on the east side of the island..i have no shadow added and used the same size brush all the way around

by **pepperonibread** on Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:12 pm

James Vazquez wrote:thank you widomaker for you advice and expertise.

As far as mibi goes noone cares if you like the content or not that is none of your business. You dont like the map dont play it. focus your commenst on the map itself. plenty of people wanna play the map. Why, for countless reasons. You dont understand, well who cares. Make your maps as you see fit and leave what is obviously a popular map alone.

I'm sure if i choose i could flood this thread with people who want to play this map but that would be a waist of time and effort. So lets just focus on getting this up to snuff and get playing on this map.

Noone wants a pissing contest!

"If mibi doesn't like the content, then it's none of his buisness" doesn't make any sense. The content (graphics) is what people talk about more than half the time in the foundry. It is part of the map itself. All he asked was a question: Can the people who really like this map tell me why they like it?
You didn't even answer that. All you said was "You dont understand, well who cares." That's helpful. :roll:

by **Tisha** on Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:14 pm

pepperonibread wrote:
James Vazquez wrote:thank you widomaker for you advice and expertise.

As far as mibi goes noone cares if you like the content or not that is none of your business. You dont like the map dont play it. focus your commenst on the map itself. plenty of people wanna play the map. Why, for countless reasons. You dont understand, well who cares. Make your maps as you see fit and leave what is obviously a popular map alone.

I'm sure if i choose i could flood this thread with people who want to play this map but that would be a waist of time and effort. So lets just focus on getting this up to snuff and get playing on this map.

Noone wants a pissing contest!

"If mibi doesn't like the content, then it's none of his buisness" doesn't make any sense. The content (graphics) is what people talk about more than half the time in the foundry. It is part of the map itself. All he asked was a question: Can the people who really like this map tell me why they like it?
You didn't even answer that. All you said was "You dont understand, well
who cares." That's helpful.

please stop..if your not posting about my map...then don't post. i really don't need any more negative posts in here..

by **AndyDufresne** on Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:02 pm

Agreed (in regards to the above post). Keep personal discussions about one another out of the map thread. Lets keep this thread on topic...and that topic being the Puget Sound Map!

--Andy

by **spiesr** on Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:06 pm

Could you redraw the map to look more like this example?

I think this visual style is better and would work for this map...

by **oaktown** on Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:05 pm

spiesr wrote:Could you redraw the map to look more like this example?

That's a joke, right spiesr? Because the mapmaker and I are laughing. :lol:

Let's get back to talking about what it will take to get this map quenched. Gameplay issues seem to be finalized, so it's just a matter of cleaning some things up, right? Here's what i see from the last few pages:

Borders: most look good, really. A few are stilled pixely, such as those along the river on the bottom left corner.

A bigger concern for me is that many of the borders don't match the meeting of the land/water. The edge of Shelton sticks out under the border, as does Tahuya, Gig Harbor, Lakewood, Seattle, Port Townsend... well, most of the shorelines really. This may or may not be an easy fix depending on how the borders were drawn to begin with, but if it were my map I'd want to get it right.

Army circles: the location of the circles should be fine. The coordinates, well, actually they all look a bit to the left and high, but welcome to Conquer Club. My guess is that the width of each circle is an even number of pixels while the numbers themselves are odd, so unless you swap out all of the circles you'll never get it perfect. I say leave them, but I don't have the final say.

Legend: number placement is clearly inconsistent. Easy fix.

I still think the whales look amateurish on an otherwise classy map, but that's just my opinion and this call should belong to the mapmaker.

The Mt Rainier border is so square it looks like legend info... I seem to recall this being discussed earlier so if this is old news you can tell me where to stick it. :wink:

Have I missed anything?

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