The Tick Mafia - JUSTICE PREVAILS!

by **Loose Canon** on Tue Sep 05, 2023 2:47 pm

Regarding my vote not counting yes I knew.
I'm not going to spell out my identity even if the votes try to force a claim on me on day 1.
My identity MIGHT become clearer IF I survive this day and night.

by **Extreme Ways** on Tue Sep 05, 2023 2:52 pm

fusibaseball wrote:Pixar's reaction is also weird to me. It was already getting a little fishy that there seemed to be a core group of vocal players adamantly against jumping on the free-claim wagon when I don't see a drawback to getting information out in the open. If he's Town, the claim can be cleanly followed up on Night 1 and he's untouchable for a while (role-blocking roles aside, which could be addressed later down the road). If he's Scum/3rd party, he's promptly found out and the lynch Day 2 is easy. What's going on?

If this is a case, then why not claim yourself to have this information out in the open? Pressure without basis is meaningless imo. I know my example doesn't hold up too well because without pressure people can bluff a lot more, but still.

About the voteless thing, there's a really dumb Congress setup on mafia.gg that takes into account double-voters.
Description:

Town's primary power is their vote, which they must use to vote out all 3 mafia before they lose control. The game starts with approximately ~17 town vote power and to ~7 scum vote power. When there are no remaining double-voters, then town has likely lost because the vote power differential no longer exists.

Do NOT play this setup without having any foreknowledge as it will be borderline impossible to win as town unless Tax Collector is killed early.

https://mafiagg.fandom.com/wiki/Congress

I'm not sure but I expect vote-modifying things to be be a Town role. My first instinct was a tiebreaker-like role, but we only lynch when we have majority. When the day ends without a majority, the day just ends.

In addition, it could also be a "sees self as <X>" thing where Loose was never told his vote didnt count. A bit weird for such a setup, but I have played with such roles before.

by **Extreme Ways** on Tue Sep 05, 2023 2:54 pm

I was fastposted.

Loose Canon wrote:Regarding my vote not counting yes I knew.
I'm not going to spell out my identity even if the votes try to force a claim on me on day 1.
My identity MIGHT become clearer IF I survive this day and night.

Do you mean that your role might do something else tomorrow? Otherwise, I don't see why you willingly chose to reveal this piece information without having a bit more for us to go on.

btw I think pix just had fortunate timing and I dont think they were coordinating whatsoever.

by **SoN!c** on Tue Sep 05, 2023 3:06 pm

Extreme Ways wrote:I was fastposted.
Loose Canon wrote:Regarding my vote not counting yes I knew.
I'm not going to spell out my identity even if the votes try to force a claim on me on day 1.
My identity MIGHT become clearer IF I survive this day and night.

Do you mean that your role might do something else tomorrow? Otherwise, I don't see why you willingly chose to reveal this piece information without having a bit more for us to go on.

btw I think pix just had fortunate timing and I dont think they were coordinating whatsoever.

I agree that they did not know but it should be pretty obvious to them by now.

If we don't lynch Loose before nightfall he will murder. C'mon not being able to vote is so unlike townie's. What more do you want? A written confession by Loose? He did not even deny it, just saying something vague "it will become clear" after the night. With a Smoking gun in his hand at breakfast

by **TrafalgarLaw01** on Tue Sep 05, 2023 3:08 pm

Loose Canon, I don't get it. If u knew your vote werent going to count D1 why cast it anyway? it was a condition or what was the reason behind?
He might be an odd voteless, but I'm not sure why casting it and now saying your role will be more helpfull d2, have you not voted at all u would not be under the radar

I don't think not being able to vote makes Loose mafia, Actually I think the opposite. As in the examples in the mafia wiki I posted the exa,mples were both with townie voteless (it can still be mafia as its a not aligment role, but I think its more likely Loose its town than mafia)

by **Extreme Ways** on Tue Sep 05, 2023 3:14 pm

I lean to one of two scenarios:

1) Loose is lying and wasnt aware that his vote didnt count and is now panicking/bluffing.
2) Loose wasn't lying and him voting is a condition for something else to happen, as town.

The second is kinda convoluted but why would you vote as scum knowing it would make you prime suspect nr 1. There was no reason to vote, nobody was even asking him to vote.

by **strike wolf** on Tue Sep 05, 2023 3:14 pm

fusibaseball wrote:Pixar's reaction is also weird to me. It was already getting a little fishy that there seemed to be a core group of vocal players adamantly against jumping on the free-claim wagon when I don't see a drawback to getting information out in the open. If he's Town, the claim can be cleanly followed up on Night 1 and he's untouchable for a while (role-blocking roles aside, which could be addressed later down the road). If he's Scum/3rd party, he's promptly found out and the lynch Day 2 is easy. What's going on?

The sword of mob justice is always double edged, my friend! Claims are not risk free. Technically Elementary mafia was the worst Case scenario revealing our cop and doc before day 3 as it made them targets for mafia and made the kill targets for mafia pretty reliable. For instance, mafia know that Doc protects Cop night 1, so they got a free shot on Extreme. The only wrinkle that threw them off was our doc being able to self protect which is not something you can reliably say all mods will allow. This game is further complicated by additional power roles. The existence of secondary investigators or protective characters do make our cop and doc slightly less devastating to reveal but we also have potential mafia roles like Bus Driver (chooses two players each night and any actions aimed at one will instead affect the other), role blocker (self evident I hope but basically just prevents their chosen target from using their action for one night) and Framer (makes an innocent target appear guilty on investigation) can screw with night results and are pretty common making verification of roles more difficult. Other players may have roles that are more difficult to verify. So claims aren't always good for Town. Otherwise, if they were then mass claiming Day 1 would be the consistent meta across every game.

Note: I have not read to the bottom of the page yet and will only comment on the Ragian, Loose thing when I am caught up. For now, I'll just mention that roles that can affect the end of day lynch are almost always town.

by **strike wolf** on Tue Sep 05, 2023 3:16 pm

Ebwop: Or rather, it's very rare for scum to have a role like this. Third party is possible.

by **strike wolf** on Tue Sep 05, 2023 3:55 pm

So there's three+ possibilities here in terms of Loose's role.

1. Loose is voteless. He may have another power to counteract his otherwise detrimental role to town but I can't say for certain. I don't think there has ever been a case of a vote less mafia. It's just too detrimental to them to have a member who can't vote at all.

2. Loose can only vote under certain conditions.

A. Loose can only vote to hammer.

B. Loose's vote is activated under other conditions or after a certain condition is met.

Scenario 2 is a little more likely to be scum but still usually falls under town.

3. And this is getting out there as I'm not sure there's ever even been such a role but Loose could hypothetically even be a role who can give their vote to someone else.

by **DirtyDishSoap** on Tue Sep 05, 2023 6:47 pm

strike wolf wrote:So there's three+ possibilities here in terms of Loose's role.

1. Loose is voteless. He may have another power to counteract his otherwise detrimental role to town but I can't say for certain. I don't think there has ever been a case of a vote less mafia. It's just too detrimental to them to have a member who can't vote at all.

2. Loose can only vote under certain conditions.

A. Loose can only vote to hammer.

B. Loose's vote is activated under other conditions or after a certain condition is met.

Scenario 2 is a little more likely to be scum but still usually falls under town.

3. And this is getting out there as I'm not sure there's ever even been such a role but Loose could hypothetically even be a role who can give their vote to someone else.

1. I agree. See little reason for scum to be voteless. Can see a third party however, which leads to...

2. He can only activate his powers under the condition that he does vote. I haven't seen Tick in a minute, and i can't see anyone so irrelevant and meek other than Ticks sidekick. That's obviously a stretch on my end. He's a sidekick so his vote doesn't count.

A. I don't think he would be able to vote at all unless it's a hammer, nor would it be "counted."

B. This is more than likely, but shouldn't speculate too much without a confirm. Again, though, i err on the side of caution.

3. I'm not going to entertain the idea of giving someone a double vote at the drop of a hat. L-2 wouldn't exist and that's basically an overpowered Mayor.

by **fusibaseball** on Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:10 pm

@Strike: That makes sense, thanks for taking time to explain that. I was sort of starting to wonder in the back of my mind why it wasn't standard practice/meta to just have mass claims Day 1, as it would seem to me that on average the false claims could be sniffed out fast enough to outweigh the burden against Town of having their strongest roles immediately night-killed. But I suppose this has likely been debunked over and over and it obviously must not be in Town's best interest to mass claim Day 1 as it's not standard practice.

Alas, I digress. On the issue at hand:

I did some digging in the link Dega sent out of the available roles, as there can't be too many on that list that have a specific "vesting" voting condition folks are describing. There's too many roles for me to feel like reading through but I found the nifty "Voting" button in the top right and I'd imagine Loose's role is on this list:

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Category:Voting_roles

I think from that list and Loose's comment:

Loose Canon wrote:Regarding my vote not counting yes I knew.
I'm not going to spell out my identity even if the votes try to force a claim on me on day 1.
My identity MIGHT become clearer IF I survive this day and night.

we may have a Vote Thief or Restless Spirit on our hands.

None of the rest of those specifically describe the inability to vote Day 1 unless I skipped it.

I lean towards Vote Thief as it's more fitting of The Tick theme to have a thief than a spirit and Loose intimated a growing power. He would then be town-aligned according to the article and he would be disinclined from claiming as he has a special interest to survive to Day 2 and cast his double-vote. Dega may have him alternating between 0 and 2-vote days.

I am still very much also considering the Third Party possibility people are throwing out (especially considering his cryptic response). More thoughts to come. Very very interesting role already coming to the surface Mr. Mod

plenty of food for thought

by **DukeHazzard** on Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:21 pm

I must say that all this coming out about loose, it's very interesting and gives us something to discuss. I'm leaning on the side of he's town with that role. I also think that the 0 vote - 2 vote alternating days makes the most sense to me out of all the possibilities.

Having said that, Pix has used this to avoid claiming. When I voted for him, I didn't actually think he was scummy. But now, his avoidance, and seemingly hoping we would forget about him, makes me feel that he is scummy. I get that he's also using the joke wagon excuse to not take this seriously, but then that also seems scummy. Why not just come clean and claim? Like he's supposed to. Unless he has something to hide...

Pix?

by **SoN!c** on Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:10 pm

Extreme Ways wrote:I lean to one of two scenarios:

1) Loose is lying and wasnt aware that his vote didnt count and is now panicking/bluffing.
2) Loose wasn't lying and him voting is a condition for something else to happen, as town.

The second is kinda convoluted but why would you vote as scum knowing it would make you prime suspect nr 1. There was no reason to vote, nobody was even asking him to vote.

He simply has misread his character instructions or he forgot that part that he can't vote / do anything during the day.

Only two possibilities: he knew or he did not
He knew: He knew he can't vote but votes anyway blowing away his cover: why would you do that? For some rare town condition to trigger on D1 already? Seems very very unlikely..
He did not: He did not know by not reading his character instructions thorough (most likely event) or simply forgot it after a few days: this happens more than you would think.. A very likely scenario

Also Loose Canon wrote the following prior to this:

Am I right in thinking not voting gives scum an advantage as they will probably kill one or more of us on Night one and so its marginally best for us to vote someone out rather than not.

That's all folks!!!

So he was saying he is pro-Town, he said "us" as like he was not scum twice (the sentence reads as "it would be best for us townies")

Why would you post you are town if you are? There is no need for that. Generally speaking, this is a sentence somebody would use when trying to hide the opposite (pretending to be "one of us").

by **Extreme Ways** on Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:56 am

I say I'm town all the time, I even conclude it in my chummy to scummy lists. I think the vote alternator seems most likely , I just find it hard to believe that a scum role is voteless. Could very well be 3P, but I struggle to see their wincon.

by **DirtyDishSoap** on Wed Sep 06, 2023 5:41 am

DukeHazzard wrote:I must say that all this coming out about loose, it's very interesting and gives us something to discuss. I'm leaning on the side of he's town with that role. I also think that the 0 vote - 2 vote alternating days makes the most sense to me out of all the possibilities.

Having said that, Pix has used this to avoid claiming. When I voted for him, I didn't actually think he was scummy. But now, his avoidance, and seemingly hoping we would forget about him, makes me feel that he is scummy. I get that he's also using the joke wagon excuse to not take this seriously, but then that also seems scummy. Why not just come clean and claim? Like he's supposed to. Unless he has something to hide...

Pix?

Even if this wasn't day 1, i can't agree with any of this logic. You have someone with an incredibly unique mechanic. The Pix train started out as a joke that derailed into a weird bandwagon. I think it's odd that he wanted the votes and to claim, but it's more suspicious to me on how many people jumped on it. At the very least, one of the people who jumped on it is scum.

FOS Duke

by **DirtyDishSoap** on Wed Sep 06, 2023 5:44 am

by ***Pixar*** on Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:20 am

DukeHazzard wrote:I must say that all this coming out about loose, it's very interesting and gives us something to discuss. I'm leaning on the side of he's town with that role. I also think that the 0 vote - 2 vote alternating days makes the most sense to me out of all the possibilities.

Having said that, Pix has used this to avoid claiming. When I voted for him, I didn't actually think he was scummy. But now, his avoidance, and seemingly hoping we would forget about him, makes me feel that he is scummy. I get that he's also using the joke wagon excuse to not take this seriously, but then that also seems scummy. Why not just come clean and claim? Like he's supposed to. Unless he has something to hide...

Pix?

Not avoiding anything, don't feel the need to claim now, if that voting thing didn't come up, I probably would have claimed by now. I feel like my claim is less beneficial for town than loose. It's hard for me and probably for most town to just ignore the fact that loose is unable to vote, no? To me this riddle is more important rather than picking a random stick out of the woods and making them claim...

by **DukeHazzard** on Wed Sep 06, 2023 8:56 am

DirtyDishSoap wrote:
DukeHazzard wrote:I must say that all this coming out about loose, it's very interesting and gives us something to discuss. I'm leaning on the side of he's town with that role. I also think that the 0 vote - 2 vote alternating days makes the most sense to me out of all the possibilities.

Having said that, Pix has used this to avoid claiming. When I voted for him, I didn't actually think he was scummy. But now, his avoidance, and seemingly hoping we would forget about him, makes me feel that he is scummy. I get that he's also using the joke wagon excuse to not take this seriously, but then that also seems scummy. Why not just come clean and claim? Like he's supposed to. Unless he has something to hide...

Pix?

Even if this wasn't day 1, i can't agree with any of this logic. You have someone with an incredibly unique mechanic. The Pix train started out as a joke that derailed into a weird bandwagon. I think it's odd that he wanted the votes and to claim, but it's more suspicious to me on how many people jumped on it. At the very least, one of the people who jumped on it is scum.

FOS Duke

I don't agree with your logic either. But I've stated my case, and no one is backing me up. Not even others that voted for him. I don't have much experience in this game, but I have learned that if no one is following you, you must be wrong. I will concede that.

unvote Pix

by **Loose Canon** on Wed Sep 06, 2023 9:57 am

I cast a vote I knew wouldn't count because I felt there wasn't much useful chat going round at that time, and so I wanted to try to restart it. At that time I felt marginally that Ragian was a bit suspicious so I cast it to see if there was any traction for that.
What I didn't know was HOW my unable to vote vote would be revealed or become evident.

by **Loose Canon** on Wed Sep 06, 2023 10:00 am

Guys, my post just now has appeared.
There were 2 posts I tried to make last night that didn't.
First time when I didn't see it I thought it was like sending an email before finishing it and I'd deleted it.
So I tried again and it didn't post either.
Does anyone have any ideas about this?

by **Maxleod** on Wed Sep 06, 2023 10:04 am

Loose Canon wrote:Guys, my post just now has appeared.
There were 2 posts I tried to make last night that didn't.
First time when I didn't see it I thought it was like sending an email before finishing it and I'd deleted it.
So I tried again and it didn't post either.
Does anyone have any ideas about this?

The f*ck are you talking about?

by **Loose Canon** on Wed Sep 06, 2023 10:14 am

I tried to submit 2 posts last night both of which were explaining why I thought Pixar was third party.
Both failed to be in this forum.
The only thing is I think Degaston was using or browsing the forum at the time of both.
Is it possible someone can temporarily block someone else from making posts as part of the game?

by **SoN!c** on Wed Sep 06, 2023 10:22 am

Loose Canon wrote:I cast a vote I knew wouldn't count because I felt there wasn't much useful chat going round at that time, and so I wanted to try to restart it. At that time I felt marginally that Ragian was a bit suspicious so I cast it to see if there was any traction for that.
What I didn't know was HOW my unable to vote vote would be revealed or become evident.

So basically your saying you knew your vote would not count but you thought you would get away with that as the vote would not be revealed..

Sounds like scummy scheming to me

/ˈskiːmɪŋ/
adjective
given to or involved in making secret and underhand scummy plans.

In any case: So much for the very unlikely "rare town condition to get triggered by the unvote guy voting" theory

Well, even so - You've got nothing to worry about. Half these town guys don't even have legs or do they?

by **DirtyDishSoap** on Wed Sep 06, 2023 10:33 am

I'm a quadriplegic.

by **SoN!c** on Wed Sep 06, 2023 11:22 am

Lets do a Hercule Poirot scene while drinking a nice Pumpkin Spice Latté so i ask everybody to name your three suspects:

After all Town's primary power is their vote, which they must use to vote out all 3 mafia before they lose control. The game starts with approximately ~17 town vote power and to ~7 scum vote power.

Let's lynch asap !

My three suspects and why:

1: Loose Cannon = he can't vote (very unlike town) and admitted he tought the "unvote" would not be seen by the rest..

Currently Loose is trying to swindle himself out of this confession by making all sorts of new explanations but one new explanation does not add up to the other old one.. If you would do a S.C.A.N. of his posts and words a lot of red flags pop up pointing out he is lying / changing stories..

More then a solid case he is mafia - what more do you want? Getting him to post he is mafia in the thread? Ain't gonna happen

Lets lynch!

2: Pixar = he did not defended himself well by not denying the bandwagon. Felt like he wanted to balance the cord so hard the other mafia would know he is one of them but the townies would still be in doubt.. Im thinking he strongly believes he won't get 10 votes as town will stay devided because many players don't wanna vote on D1.
Then he defended Loose Cannon by unvoting his vote as soon Loose got the "mafia stamp" on him as a prime suspect..

3. Extreme Ways = he defended Loose Cannon so well people started to believe him. An evil genius mastermind we have here! He Even comes up with the strangest theories to convince others Loose is Town. Saying the "unvote guy voting on D1 would trigger a scenario". If Loose followed this theory and played along i think Loose would have gotten away with it..it's that evil good! =D>

But instead Loose posts he KNEW his vote would not count, only tought it would not be noticeable by anybody else.. :roll:

and mucks up the perfect defense play Extreme Ways cunningly already prepared in our heads.

Then Extreme Ways said more than once we should not lynch on D1 even when the cases againt Pix and Loose were getting bigger and bigger. He even defended Pixar to make enough doubt so he would not get 10 votes by making a new vote for General Bax. Any vote other then Pixar would have done fine for him, he just needed to create doubt is the way i see it. Keeping townies 50-50 devided

And then making an excuse why he would not see the clues against Loose Extreme ways posted "his detective skills are failing him" while posting 'Loose reads town" in the same post (Extreme Ways on Tue Sep 05, 2023 7:53 am)

From the pilot: "The evil mastermind? Spidery? Reclusive? Evil?

The Tick Mafia - JUSTICE PREVAILS!

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