[Abandoned] War of Wizards

by **Victor Sullivan** on Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:44 pm

Haha, well, I've got a lot going on in and out of CC. Please continue to bother me (PM is best). I definitely want to get to this (and other maps in need of gameplay analysis) soon. It's just been a blaaaaaaaaahhhh time. I'm thinking most of it should settle down by the end of this week (at least my RL stuff).

-Sully

by **natty dread** on Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:01 pm

Ok, well here's the latest image with neutral values for your convenience, whenever you want to take a look.

Click image to enlarge.

by **natty dread** on Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:39 pm

Ahem...

by **Victor Sullivan** on Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:17 pm

It's on my to-do list for this evening

Give me some time! GOSH! YOU ARE SO NEEDY!!

-Sully

by **natty dread** on Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:19 pm

YOUR MOM IS NEEDY

That's right, I said it!

by **Victor Sullivan** on Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:29 pm

natty_dread wrote:YOUR MOM IS NEEDY

That's right, I said it!

It's true... :cry:

-Sully

by **Victor Sullivan** on Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:00 am

Sorry it took me so long. My internet is giving me more shit than a flock of birds after lunch.

Looking at things now... Well, things don't look so balanced. Merin is at an inherent disadvantage, since Aris has nowhere to go but into Merin territory, and anything that could be considered "Merin's", could just as easily be Aris' or Seketh's. Sure, Seketh could go into Boruk territory, but it seems to me the are more bonuses to be had if he were to go toward Merin than Boruk. Aris has a decent advantage, as Aris can secure its territory pretty quickly and easily, as it can hold all the way up to Amun, N04, and N05 and guard all of that territory with 3 regions, though it has to get all the way to N05 to really branch into other territory besides Merin's. Boruk, similar to Aris somewhat, is essentially forced to go into Seketh territory, as the steep cost of going into Azael really isn't worth it - and Boruk can secure his land pretty easily if he gets up to Se09, considering Azael is not going to take upon itself the burden of breaking Boruk by going through 12 neutrals. Azael seems to be in a prime spot. Right off the bat he can get Mana8 for a +1 then Az07 for an additional +2; take Az06, then make your way to Zevar and S13 and you've got a +6 and an auto-deploy +2 virtually uncontested, assuming Oloch doesn't bolt to Zevar from the get go. Oloch can similarly get quick bonuses with Mana7, Ol05, Ol07, and Gar, though its position is less peripheral than Azael. Heim... Heim really has one of two options: race to S02 to block Tamar (unlikely, because Tamar has less neutrals to go through) or hit Ethol and enter Oloch territory - neither of which is great. And Heim doesn't really have many bonuses to speak of in its area. Tamar's strategy can really only be hit Mana5, Ta08, then S02, then it's kind of stuck.

Solutions, solutions... I suggest extending Ta05 to the coast, then move the ferry from Ta04 to Ta05. Next, put a bridge between Ta04 and Mana1, then perhaps switch the unicorn at Ar05 with the mana fount at Mana1. Next, reduce all ferry regions to 2 neutrals instead of 6, with the exception of N09 which can just be reduced to 4. Next, move the shrine at S04 to S06. Next, hm... Wait. I think we may have a more serious issue here. I think the Light bonuses aren't as feasible to achieve as the Dark bonuses. The 2 Mana Fount bonus and the 2 Village, 1 Shrine bonus just seem excessively difficult to get in comparison to the much easier Dark bonuses. I suppose this is remedied somewhat by Spirit Guard, but... I dunno. Perhaps you could expound on this some, natty. Anyway, I'll think of some other changes and re-review, if you so choose to implement my suggestions. I think a solid back-and-forth discussion would be good to hammer this out.

-Sully

by **natty dread** on Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:10 am

Victor Sullivan wrote:I suggest extending Ta05 to the coast, then move the ferry from Ta04 to Ta05. Next, put a bridge between Ta04 and Mana1

Ok, this really can't be done... the two land masses need to be separated so that it's clear which areas belong to the southern and which to the northern land mass. So no bridges between them... I think we need to figure out some alternate solution for this one...

Victor Sullivan wrote:Next, reduce all ferry regions to 2 neutrals instead of 6, with the exception of N09 which can just be reduced to 4.

How about 3 for all? Except ports which stay as 6:s.

Victor Sullivan wrote:Next, move the shrine at S04 to S06.

Sure.

Victor Sullivan wrote:Wait. I think we may have a more serious issue here. I think the Light bonuses aren't as feasible to achieve as the Dark bonuses. The 2 Mana Fount bonus and the 2 Village, 1 Shrine bonus just seem excessively difficult to get in comparison to the much easier Dark bonuses.

I can change the bonus to 1 village + 1 shrine and make it +2. Other than that, the dark bonuses aren't all so easy either... all of the dark bonuses require some commodity which is heavily contested, such as village, mana or tower. A dark player can get one bonus of each relatively easily, but more than that requires conquering some enemy land...

Victor Sullivan wrote:Anyway, I'll think of some other changes and re-review, if you so choose to implement my suggestions. I think a solid back-and-forth discussion would be good to hammer this out.

Yep, sounds good. I'll do the changes I've mentioned here and we can work it out from there.

by **natty dread** on Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:10 am

Hey look, an update.

Click image to enlarge.

Without numbers:

Click image to enlarge.

Oh, I also reduced the neutrals on the 2nd dark spell to the same as the 2nd light spell - although it gives higher bonus, graveyards are harder to come by than shrines, so I think that already offsets it.

by **isaiah40** on Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:52 pm

Looking at this, right now I believe that the neutrals on the top three levels are a little high. Based on the amount of men you will receive each turn won't be enough to take them. From level 3 in order up maybe, 10, 15, 25 neutrals, and the Temple of fury can have 50 neutrals. I believe this would still make it hard to get them, but not impossible. I'll comment later as I get my head around the bonuses.

Edit: Tamar tower is at a disadvantage in getting to the shrine. There is 20 neutrals to get there, while Heirn tower only has to go through 8 neutrals. A really big difference. My suggestion would be to swap the gold and shrine around. That would mean 15 and 12 neutrals respectively. A little bit more even for both players. Plus in this way the Heirn player can block the Tamar player from collecting the unicorn+gold bonus. Also, Seketh Tower has 8 neutrals to the graveyard, while Boruk Tower has 12 neutrals. Swap the graveyard with Bo05 and both will have to go thorough 10 neutrals a piece. This is all I have for now.

by **natty dread** on Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:56 pm

Hm, sounds reasonable.

Or I could just increase the bonuses

by **Victor Sullivan** on Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:44 pm

Wait, is it "Heim" or "Heirn"?

And isaiah's "Edit" part looks good.

-Sully

by **iancanton** on Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:47 pm

isaiah40 wrote:Looking at this, right now I believe that the neutrals on the top three levels are a little high. Based on the amount of men you will receive each turn won't be enough to take them. From level 3 in order up maybe, 10, 15, 25 neutrals, and the Temple of fury can have 50 neutrals. I believe this would still make it hard to get them, but not impossible.

i'm also supportive of a reduction in neutrals for the level 3 (especially) and level 4 bombards. the temple of fury is just right though. it's far more powerful than the arms race! missile launch because u need to kill only a single wizard to knock out a player and the +10 auto-deploy for holding the level 5 bombard makes the temple of fury accessible in a reasonable number of turns.

ian.

by **natty dread** on Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:09 am

I think I agree wtih Ian here... I'll decrease the neutrals of the 3rd & 4th spells, but I'll leave the temple of fury at 70.

isaiah40 wrote:Edit: Tamar tower is at a disadvantage in getting to the shrine.

On the other hand, Tamar gets the gold + unicorn bonus easierly, so maybe that balances it out? The nearest unicorn for Heim is way out there... :-k

isaiah40 wrote:Seketh Tower has 8 neutrals to the graveyard, while Boruk Tower has 12 neutrals. Swap the graveyard with Bo05 and both will have to go thorough 10 neutrals a piece.

Yeah I'll do this.

by **natty dread** on Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:29 am

Done.

Click image to enlarge.

by **natty dread** on Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:52 am

Just bumping this up - I think more discussion is needed...

Click image to enlarge.

by **J_Indr** on Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:50 am

Natty, could you distinguish light and dark towers more than by their flags? Light towers could use a lighter shading, for example.
Hopefully I will have time for a proper look later.

by **natty dread** on Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:39 am

That's a bit problematic since there's a bonus that requires an icon for either tower.

by **J_Indr** on Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:50 am

Surely you could (if it is unclear) then put the both symbols to the legend? If really needed.

Also, the light/dark bonuses - can you get them only if you have the particular wizard, or are they opened to all?

by **natty dread** on Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:07 am

No I couldn't, that would imply that you would need one of both towers.

Light/dark bonuses are for light/dark wizards.

by **isaiah40** on Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:36 am

Heirn Tower/Wizard has a very big advantage over Tamar wizard/tower. Heirn can get the shrine and village long before Tamar can get the unicorn/gold bonus. Heirn has to go through 12 neutrals to receive the shrine village bonus. Heirn now has approxiamately 7 men per turn plus the +2 auto on the village while Tamar is getting the minimum of 5. In a couple of more turns Heirn now has Spirit guard and receiving 10 men per turn while Tamar is fighting to get 5. I suggest swapping Mana5 and S06 around. In this way it will give Tamar an opportunity to at least have a fighting chance.

by **J_Indr** on Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:08 am

natty_dread wrote:No I couldn't, that would imply that you would need one of both towers.

Light/dark bonuses are for light/dark wizards.

I think you need to write it there; it's not absolutely obvious. And, in light of your previous stuff, does it mean that dark wizard gets bonus for an ownership of a light tower + a graveyard?

by **natty dread** on Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:36 am

isaiah40 wrote:Heirn Tower/Wizard has a very big advantage over Tamar wizard/tower. Heirn can get the shrine and village long before Tamar can get the unicorn/gold bonus. Heirn has to go through 12 neutrals to receive the shrine village bonus. Heirn now has approxiamately 7 men per turn plus the +2 auto on the village while Tamar is getting the minimum of 5. In a couple of more turns Heirn now has Spirit guard and receiving 10 men per turn while Tamar is fighting to get 5. I suggest swapping Mana5 and S06 around. In this way it will give Tamar an opportunity to at least have a fighting chance.

Swapping Mana5 away from Tamar is not a really good idea, the Mana fountain after all gives an instant bonus so depriving Tamar of it would do more harm to him than good I think...

What if I move the unicorn from Ta08 to Ta09 so Tamar has fewer neutrals to get to the gold and shrine?

by **natty dread** on Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:39 am

J_Indr wrote:
natty_dread wrote:No I couldn't, that would imply that you would need one of both towers.

Light/dark bonuses are for light/dark wizards.

I think you need to write it there; it's not absolutely obvious. And, in light of your previous stuff, does it mean that dark wizard gets bonus for an ownership of a light tower + a graveyard?

Yes, it does mean that. How is "light bonuses / dark bonuses" not obvious? The name clearly implies they only apply to light/dark wizards... otherwise, there'd be no reason to divide them in light/dark groups and they'd be called just "bonuses".

by **J_Indr** on Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:05 pm

natty_dread wrote:
J_Indr wrote:
natty_dread wrote:No I couldn't, that would imply that you would need one of both towers.

Light/dark bonuses are for light/dark wizards.

I think you need to write it there; it's not absolutely obvious. And, in light of your previous stuff, does it mean that dark wizard gets bonus for an ownership of a light tower + a graveyard?

Yes, it does mean that. How is "light bonuses / dark bonuses" not obvious? The name clearly implies they only apply to light/dark wizards... otherwise, there'd be no reason to divide them in light/dark groups and they'd be called just "bonuses".

Maybe because they could as well mean that it's enough to hold a tower of that colour?
Or maybe because it's just storyline thing?

[Abandoned] War of Wizards

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