[Abandoned] - Dark Age Britain

by **gimil** on Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:20 am

You indeed have had alot of intrest in this map. Its jsut suffering jsut now bcause your not giving it enought attention

by **Fireside Poet** on Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:20 pm

Perhaps to stimulate this idea further -- take a look at the game Britannia by Avalon Hill. Your basic premise seems to be based on it, but might benefit from more "factions". What they did in the game was take the main invaders from Europe (Danes, Belgaens, Picts, Saxons, Scots, Norsemen, Angles, Scots, Caledonians, etc...) ... maybe if you divided up Britain into finer pieces ala World 2.1) and had each of the factions represented for bonuses? Just a thought in quick passing ...

by **Telvannia** on Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:16 am

Fireside Poet wrote:Perhaps to stimulate this idea further -- take a look at the game Britannia by Avalon Hill. Your basic premise seems to be based on it, but might benefit from more "factions". What they did in the game was take the main invaders from Europe (Danes, Belgaens, Picts, Saxons, Scots, Norsemen, Angles, Scots, Caledonians, etc...) ... maybe if you divided up Britain into finer pieces ala World 2.1) and had each of the factions represented for bonuses? Just a thought in quick passing ...

I think it might be a bit late to make such a big change to the map, because doing that will make it a completely new map...

by **TaCktiX** on Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:40 pm

I like the map a lot, and I would enjoy playing on it. A few small tweaks though:

- Your topic title says Dark Age Britian. For the sake of all good Brits everywhere, fix the typo.
- I agree on the "territories are TOO straight" gripe. Put some jiggle into the border lines so it doesn't look like it's a piece of wood cut in several places.
- Try not to use so many abbreviations on the buildings. Seeing C.yard jars my suspension of disbelief. Hate to say "hyphenate on two lines", but I think that's better than abbreviating something as gloriously Dark Age as Courtyard.
- Could you make the buildings a little more defined color-wise? Right now it feels like I'm playing pattern-matching in 3rd grade trying to find what building goes to what.

That's all I can think of right now, good luck.

by **asl80** on Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:45 pm

The castle floor plan graphics improvements look really good telvania.

As for font ... i think i'd like to see how the fonts on Clwyd and Brega at the moment look on some other territories. (there are some other nice fonts in there ... but thier legibility on such a small graphic are a little cramped)

by **Telvannia** on Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:41 am

Click image to enlarge.

What You Need To Know
1. Territories - 63
2. Continents - 9 (not including castles)
3. Other Gameplay Features - Decay on the sea territories. Sea territories and manau starting neutral

Changes in this Update
1.I have rearranged everything
2.Changed the fonts
3.NO CHANGE IN ACTUAL GAMEPLAY

To Do List
1.Finish putting names everywhere
2.XML

Points to Discuss
1.The new Font
2.Legend explanations.
3.Do i need to put the castle connection box back in?
4.Starting sea neutrals
5.should there be a bonus for holding the sea?

by **Balsiefen** on Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:19 am

Well, I'm back from holiday now so i can be of a bit more use to you. Well done Tel for getting it moving nicely, I dont think you need to worry about interest too much, its getting quite a bit.

1.The new Font
Very nice in my opinion. Clear but not boring. Although I can personally see them, other people may find the names on the castles rather small

2.Legend explanations.
Again, good. I see no problem with it.

3.Do i need to put the castle connection box back in?
I'm not personally missing it.

4.Starting sea neutrals
I would say 3 or 4 (prob 3) would be good starting numbers, that would give people a little insentive to build up on land before raiding by sea but not to give an Irish player too much of an advantage (in fact, they may find unprotected ports rather a problem once someone breaks through the seas.)

5.should there be a bonus for holding the sea?
No. Seas should be, and were, pretty useless in themselves. The advantages of them should be the ability to make unsuspected lightning attacks on those far away from you, and control of them allows you to take beneficial lands such as manau and ireland while keeping them defended.

Oh yes, once we've made our final decision on sea values and anything else that arises, remind me to do that XML

by **Telvannia** on Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:49 am

Balsiefen wrote:4.Starting sea neutrals
I would say 3 or 4 (prob 3) would be good starting numbers, that would give people a little insentive to build up on land before raiding by sea but not to give an Irish player too much of an advantage (in fact, they may find unprotected ports rather a problem once someone breaks through the seas.)

Just an idea, we dont have to have all the seas with the same neutral number, because some are more important than others, for example Muir Munster could have a low value because it really is not helpful, whereas Muir Eire has access to 3 different continents, so should have a higher value.
But you are right we dont want to give ireland a large advantage.

by **TaCktiX** on Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:10 am

1.The new Font
Like it.
2.Legend explanations.
Good, except tHOUgh is a typo of tHROUgh. If people don't understand that they need help.
3.Do i need to put the castle connection box back in?
Don't need to, but I suggest you change the Engle Sac / Muir Nore border to be slightly more south? The border line coincides with one of the castles and a village, making them look like they connect.
4.Starting sea neutrals
An even 3 everywhere to start, for reasons Balsiefen has already noted.
5.should there be a bonus for holding the sea?
Balsiefen already posted my sentiment.

by **bryguy** on Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:40 am

1.The new Font
its ok
2.Legend explanations.
they seem fine to me
3.Do i need to put the castle connection box back in?
Yes
4.Starting sea neutrals
id say an even 4
5.should there be a bonus for holding the sea?
see balsiefens post

by **Balsiefen** on Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:28 am

Telvannia wrote:
Balsiefen wrote:4.Starting sea neutrals
I would say 3 or 4 (prob 3) would be good starting numbers, that would give people a little insentive to build up on land before raiding by sea but not to give an Irish player too much of an advantage (in fact, they may find unprotected ports rather a problem once someone breaks through the seas.)

Just an idea, we dont have to have all the seas with the same neutral number, because some are more important than others, for example Muir Munster could have a low value because it really is not helpful, whereas Muir Eire has access to 3 different continents, so should have a higher value.
But you are right we dont want to give ireland a large advantage.

Interesting that, I'm not sure either way at the moment, problem would be not giving certain players too much advantige. Giving Eire the same bonus as everything else may actually create a bit of interesting gameplay, making an irish player work a little more for his continent, though i also think making muir munster lower is also an interesting idea, again, it would mean an Irish player would need to earn his bonus instead of being confident that no-one would bother to sail that far round.

At the moment I'm thinking 3's all round with a possible 4 on isle of man (have to think that out a little, maybe a three would be better) and a possible 2 at muir munster.

by **oaktown** on Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:44 pm

I like the new look. I have to say, I was a bit confused at first because the castles now look as if they are on islands, which is doubly confusing since the seas are territories.

Seas: have you thought about making them killer neutrals, rather than -2? because what I see happening is that it will be too costly to defend the seas, so once a sea is taken it sits with a single army and becomes an easy way to shoot around somebody's ground defenses and attack the other side of the land in one quick turn. And maybe that is OK.

I agree with balsie and tack on most everything else above... no bonus necessary for the seas, font is fine if not particularly 'dark ages'

by **hulmey** on Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:38 am

Hmm people like the font, but thats all!! I liked the font which look old english style. THis one seems to be boring compared to all the others u offered!

by **Balsiefen** on Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:58 am

Oaktown wrote:Seas: have you thought about making them killer neutrals, rather than -2? because what I see happening is that it will be too costly to defend the seas, so once a sea is taken it sits with a single army and becomes an easy way to shoot around somebody's ground defenses and attack the other side of the land in one quick turn. And maybe that is OK.

Interesting, i never quite worked out what they did, though to me it looks rather interesting. Is it that if someone takes them, at the end of their round they turn back into a neutral 2? What if someone leaves a large number of men, do they get wiped out?

At the moment, I have to say I rather like the way people can shoot around peoples ground defenses, and ATM, bonuses are calculated that people will be defending all of their ports.

Hmm people like the font, but thats all!! I liked the font which look old english style. THis one seems to be boring compared to all the others u offered!

Personally, I think the font is both easy to read and looks pretty dark age. If you remember when Tel put up the other fonts, people overwhealmingly voted for wessex which was Awful, and to be honest-I didn't think any of the other fonts worked either. Although i liked the origional font we had, it caused too many problems, what with deciding on the backing for it and the fact that no-one could read it.

by **TaCktiX** on Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:19 am

The new font isn't medieval in the "we have castles and lords and serfs, oh my!" sense, but more in the peasant sense of functional non-script handwriting. At least, that's how I justify it.

Tel, are you going to jagged-ize the borders so the map doesn't look so "perfect"?

[threadjack]
Balsiefen, your signature is very jarring. Pick an image or increase the delay between switches.
[/threadjack]

by **Balsiefen** on Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:28 am

TaCktiX wrote:The new font isn't medieval in the "we have castles and lords and serfs, oh my!" sense, but more in the peasant sense of functional non-script handwriting. At least, that's how I justify it.

Which is a good thing as in the dark ages there wasn't a feudal system. (actually, the writing is proberbly moderatly accurate as only monks would really be literate and, in britain at least, they hadn't developed the elaborate gothic type handwriting of later periods.

[threadjack]
Balsiefen, your signature is very jarring. Pick an image or increase the delay between switches.
[/threadjack]

Yea, I couldn't be bothered to change it so i went back to a single one

by **Balsiefen** on Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:28 am

Balsiefen wrote:
TaCktiX wrote:The new font isn't medieval in the "we have castles and lords and serfs, oh my!" sense, but more in the peasant sense of functional non-script handwriting. At least, that's how I justify it.

Which is a good thing as in the dark ages there wasn't a feudal system. (actually, the writing is proberbly moderatly accurate as only monks would really be literate and, in britain at least, they hadn't developed the elaborate gothic type handwriting of later periods.

[threadjack]
Balsiefen, your signature is very jarring. Pick an image or increase the delay between switches.
[/threadjack]

Thanks, Yea. I couldn't be bothered to change it so i went back to a single one

by **Telvannia** on Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:31 pm

Click image to enlarge.

http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/6346/dab31ag6.png

What You Need To Know
1. Territories - 63
2. Continents - 9 (not including castles)
3. Other Gameplay Features - Decay on the sea territories. Sea territories and manau starting neutral

Changes in this Update
1. Added castles names
2.Corrected the typo
3.NO CHANGE IN ACTUAL GAMEPLAY

To Do List
1.Small changes...
2.XML

Points to Discuss
3.Do i need to put the castle connection box back in?
4.Sea neutrals: Decay or Killer?

by **Ogrecrusher** on Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:38 pm

Seas should be killer neutral, it's a good representation of the sea at that time. You suffer attrition as you leave men behind you to die as you advance

Castle connection box might be handy, but with the names I think you could get away without it.

One other thing, inside the castles, it could be clearer what borders what.

by **AndyDufresne** on Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:13 pm

I like the newest version of this map...though the font still has to win me over a little. As do the images...but the over all layout and graphics I like.

--Andy

by **oaktown** on Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:50 pm

Balsiefen wrote:Interesting, i never quite worked out what they did, though to me it looks rather interesting. Is it that if someone takes them, at the end of their round they turn back into a neutral 2? What if someone leaves a large number of men, do they get wiped out?

At the moment, I have to say I rather like the way people can shoot around peoples ground defenses, and ATM, bonuses are calculated that people will be defending all of their ports.

Yeah, killer neutrals are still uncharted territory... you might be the first!

My understanding is that they revert back at the end of your turn to become neutral, regardless of how many troops you have on them. And I believe you can set the value of the neutral - 3, 2, 1, 12, whatever.

The beauty of killer neutrals is that nobody ever "owns" the seas, but you can "control" the sea traffic by holding the ports. This seems to be in keeping with sea power of the dark ages.

As for having to defend the ports, in some ways a killer neutral would require you to be at least as vigilant against attack. In the games I've played on Dust Bowl, people tend to leave the negative territories with a single army so they don't lose anything - you don't really have to defend against a 1. But you would have to defend against a stack of 12 that was sitting in an enemy port, with only two neutral territories standing between you.

thoughts?

by **Balsiefen** on Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:01 am

Hmm, now that is very interesting oaktown.

I think you might almost have convinced me, even if we only have killer neutrals which only reset to 1 (or possibly 2), That would be pretty accurate as no brittish ship could stay at sea long enough to "Own" the water.

Do you think there may be a possiblility for a delay? sort of the Killer won't respawn for 2 turns after it is taken.

by **Telvannia** on Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:06 am

I like this killer neutral idea myself. I think it would make the map more realistic and as Balsiefen said would make it seem more dark ageish I will have to update the legend to explain this new turn to gameplay.

I would really like the idea of making it more economical and complex for example add food territories, a bit like age of merchants, but it might be a bit late to start changing it all now... shame really, maybe this call for another map, but that is a different story.

by **Balsiefen** on Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:30 pm

Telvannia wrote:I like this killer neutral idea myself. I think it would make the map more realistic and as Balsiefen said would make it seem more dark ageish I will have to update the legend to explain this new turn to gameplay.

So thats a go? what should it respawn to though? 1, 2? if we leve it at 1 it makes it harder to keep conts later in the game but it makes re-sailing the sea so you can fortify a viable option.

I would really like the idea of making it more economical and complex for example add food territories, a bit like age of merchants, but it might be a bit late to start changing it all now... shame really, maybe this call for another map, but that is a different story.

Ach well, another time maybe

Actually, to be honest I thinks its pretty good as it is for now, maps which are overly complex rarely get played, wheras those that have a little complexity for interest tend to be among the best.

Of course, now you've set my mind racing with maps that could do that sort of thing

by **AndyDufresne** on Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:04 pm

Keep transportation of goods out of this map. Go with killer neutrals...I think I like that idea also.

--Andy

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